John F. Kennedy is often quoted as saying, “Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate.” And yes, this applies to your sales negotiation skills, folks.
This week on INSIDE Inside Sales, Darryl is joined by Tim Kintz, author of “Frictionless: Closing and Negotiating with Purpose” and rockstar president of The Kintz Group. Darryl and Tim share valuable wisdom from Tim’s Five Golden Rules of Negotiating, such as whether or not negotiation is even needed to close a sale. They also offer incredible advice on negotiating from a position of strength, gaining an advantage through timing, and how to build in victories through removal objections. Learn ways to win more deals through strong negotiating skills on this episode of INSIDE Inside Sales!
Host: Darryl Praill, VanillaSoft
Guest: Tim Kintz, The Kintz Group
Darryl Praill: Okay so, we’re back. It’s another week. I’ve missed you guys, I want you to know that. I say that with all sincerity I know I always open up the same way and I always say, I miss you. And I always say you guys are the highlight of my week, but you truly are the highlight of my week. I just, I don’t know what it is. I don’t know if it’s the therapy of talking with my tribe, and just hanging out with you guys. I hope you feel the same way, if you don’t go listen to a different podcast what do you waste your time with me for? But if you do and you’re a regular, thank you so much. For those of you who have never listened to me before my name is Darryl Praill and you, my friend, are listening to the INSIDE Inside Sales show. It’s the only show that I take a lot of pride in where we are getting into the meat and potatoes of how to get stuff done when it comes to sales, right? We talk about, you know, real tips. I frown upon vision and strategy.
Darryl Praill: This show’s for that and you can do that. I want you to learn something. I want you to make more money. I want you to close more deals. I want you to have a bigger pipeline. I want you to have a more pleasant experience as you’re working through the sales process. That’s what it’s all about. And so, as I do that, where do I get my inspiration from sometimes? Well, sometimes as you might imagine, it’s from a kick-ass book that just got you know, released by a great author. Sometimes it’s from a topic I see on social media. Sometimes it’s somebody I see on YouTube. Sometimes it’s someone I see at the show. It all varies, but I’ll be candid: Most of the time it comes from a conversation I have during the week with someone just like you. In my role, I have budget, I have a 30 and I have a zillion sales conversations.
Darryl Praill: And there’s a zillion exponential more conversations that never take place because you know, the actual pitch, the outreach, the opening line, the message on social media, on email, just absolutely sucked bonkers. And suck bonkers is a Darryl term, you’re welcome to use it. So, for the ones that I do have a conversation and they actually do a great job establishing their value and they intrigued me and they hook me and they speak to me as a marketer, my persona. And they understand the market I play in my you know, typically your ideal customer profile. And they, they hook me, and I say, yeah, I say, yeah, I think I need this. This will make my pain go away in this area over here. Tell me more. And in my mind, I’m already, you know, once you’ve got me, you will have me before you ever know you have me.
Darryl Praill: If you don’t know that you will have me before you even know you have me but I will not show you that. But in my mind, I’m already moving on to the next step. I’m already gone on, you know, what’s the cost of this? How do I get terms? How do I deploy this? Who’s gonna do it, who are my team? What do I need for resources? Do I need additional bodies or additional services? And in my mind, I’m building the business case to make the acquisition. But the biggest business case aspect whenever I make a purchase, is what am I going to pay? Which is interesting, right? Cause many people will say listen, price should be irrelevant if you’ve set the value, then the price is a non-issue because clearly the value supersedes overcomes deals with the price issues and the price goes away. Well, that’s just bullshit guys. I wanna tell you that it’s just bullshit.
Darryl Praill: Cause at the end of the day, I still have to hand you money and that hurts, it comes out of my account. So, for me, it’s about me negotiating with you to get the absolute best price. And you need to understand a couple of things. When I do this, I’m gonna shoot straight with you. I’m not gonna play head games. Many people, many marketers especially, and many consumers are the same way, not everybody. And so your job is to figure out who I am, how’s my buying style? Do I negotiate? How do I negotiate? I give verbal signs, I’m like, I’m just shooting straight. You’re gonna get it clean from me so we can get through the little dance, but not everybody’s so fortunate, and that bugs the crap outta you I’m sure. So, for me when I negotiate, I don’t wanna hear your BS. I wanna be able to trust you. And here’s the thing I need something, I need a win.
Darryl Praill: I need to be able to say they asked for X, but I got it for X less Y. But it’s not always dollars and cents. It’s not in like they asked for 100 bucks and I got it for 80 bucks. It’s not that. Sometimes it’s, I got it in terms, I got it on a bonus. Yeah, I paid full pop, but I got a Ginsu knife and this kick-ass ShamWow to clean up the spills on my work from a home desk. Whatever it might be, that’s what I need. I need to negotiate with you and feel good about it. So if you can make it feel good for me and like, I’m getting good value. Now I’m double pumped and this is what you need to understand. I’m double pumped because I’m excited about your offering what it is I’m getting from you, buying from you. And then I feel good about the purchase because you made me feel good. And here’s, if you don’t get this when I feel good about both of those things chances are when I need more stuff more widgets, more Ginsu knives, more ShamWows, I’m coming back to you because I want that experience again. I don’t wanna dick around with somebody who doesn’t get me, doesn’t get what I want doesn’t understand the relationship.
Welcome Tim Kintz
Darryl Praill: So, all of that is to say as I’m fielding call after call after call every day, I wanna help you learn how to negotiate better so people like me wanna buy from you and then talk about you and spread the word about how awesome you are. And then I can go and feel good about you. And then I’m a rockstar. So I thought to myself, who really gets negotiation. And while there’s many, many, many people out there, I’m gonna bring it back. We’ve all bought a car. Would you not agree? And would you not agree that the purchase of buying the process of buying a car, can either be the best-negotiating experience or the absolute pinnacle of the worst negotiating experience? It doesn’t need to be anything in between. So, that’s the market I want to go to. Who’s the best negotiator? Who’s the best sales trainer, sales rockstar as it relates to dealership sale? And that my friend, is Tim Kintz. Tim welcome to the show.
Tim Kintz: It’s great to be here man, thanks for having me.
Darryl Praill: Now, if you guys don’t know Tim, Tim is really good. Tim reminds me of my brother-in-law. He’s just laid back, tells it as it is, and smart as all can be. He’s with the Kintz Group you can check him out at kintzgroup.com. I love his Twitter handle @TheTimKintz. You know, you should I spell it cause you’re maybe you’re listening to the audio-only it’s K, I, N, T, Z. Or for those who are listening outside of the US, that’s a Z. So there we go. The Tim Kintz, Tim, you, my friend, if I understand you just launched a book in March called “Frictionless” all about Closing And Negotiating With Purpose, did I get that right?
Tim Kintz: You did, I’ve got it right here. It’s badly needed in our industry. Kinda like you said that you go out and buy a car anybody that’s ever bought a car has either had a good experience, I’m not so sure how many great experiences people have, or they’d had horrible experiences, right? It’s people rate buying a car in between getting sued and having a root canal. At least if they have a root canal, they get free drugs out of it, right? So, my mission is to turn these guys in dealerships, turn them into a professional negotiator. Cause, I think you said this that it’s not always about the price, right? Wouldn’t you agree that a good deal is a feeling? It’s perception.
Darryl Praill: It is. It is an emotion.
Tim Kintz: And a good deal to me are two different things.
Darryl Praill: Yes.
Tim Kintz: There’s such a broad range of what a good deal is. And I think so often, especially in car dealerships we think it’s just a dollar amount, right? Cause we’re doing it every day and we think it’s 500 below invoice or 500 over invoice. We start thinking that’s a good deal. But sometimes the guy that grinds your teeth off to get to a screaming deal, they hate your guts and they don’t feel good about the deal. Because it was a battle, there was no wins, there was no victories like you’re talking about. I truly think negotiating in the car business is a lost art. Because after the recession, you know when that recession hit in ’08, hell we were just, we were in survival mode. We didn’t even know if we’re gonna have dealerships. You didn’t want a FedEx truck to pull up cause they were the ones delivering the letter saying your dealership’s been closed by the manufacturer. And we took any deal and we sold out of desperation and that never recovered. And we were blessed that the industry and the economy was booming. More people were buying cars than we were actually selling cars. And it’s there if you’re good, but so often people are afraid, afraid to negotiate on both sides of the table.
Darryl Praill: So I guess the one thing I would, and by no means have I ever sold cars, I bought but not sold, but I would think, and maybe I’m wrong you tell me: Is that an industry where you probably get the broadest diversity of people whether they be different income levels, different credit scores, different cultural backgrounds? I almost can’t imagine an industry that gets exposed to or needs to be equipped with more tools to effectively negotiate because not everybody wants to negotiate the same way.
Tim Kintz: Absolutely, it’s like said you’ve got people with 800 credit scores. You’ve got people with 400 credit scores. You’ve got people that are writing the check for it and people that are just budget focused. You’ve got $100,000 cars and $5,000 cars we’re negotiating on. And you have to be able to pivot as a salesperson, from customer to customer. Every couple hours when you’re talking to more people, man you have to pivot to that right mindset depending on what the customer’s hot buttons are. And you know, really I think it just goes back to, we’re not in a car business we’re in the people business. And negotiating isn’t just a car business thing, it’s, we’ve been negotiating forever for since the beginning of man I’m guessing they were negotiating rocks and caves and food, but it’s just understanding what to do. I think the fear comes from a lack of knowledge, lack of skill. I think there’s such little training out there. Even in the real estate industry. My wife’s in real estate and man all they do is present offers but there’s very little negotiating going back and forth. And you know, I talk about the golden rules to negotiating and they really apply to any industry that has to negotiate something. And you said something else about emotions.
Darryl Praill: Go ahead.
Tim Kintz: When you go out to get a car, you’re excited about getting that car. Right, on your way there, you’re thinking, do we want the black one with the gray interior? Do we want black on black? Do we wanna get the sunroof? Do we wanna get the panoramic? And you’re excited and, so often you walk on a lot and salespeople’s first thing is, so how much are you looking to spend a month? How much down do you have? And they force you to become logical when you’re emotional and excited about getting that car. And emotion is what happens all the way up to the negotiation. Negotiating is logical, right? That’s the logical part of the deal. But you have to be able to leverage the emotions, to get the most out of the logic when you sit down to negotiate.
Darryl Praill: So, I mean, I think would wanna go with this. I know, I wanna talk to you. One of the things that Tim talks about is his book, guys. Is he talks about the five golden rules of negotiating? And he actually referenced it he covered that out today. You know, we’re on this emotion conversation, and what’s resonated for me when you said that, was yeah, you’re right, I’m the buyer, I’m emotional, I’m excited. And the first thing you wanna do is bring in logic. What’s your budget? We all ask that what’s your budget, question, and it takes me out of the moment.
Tim Kintz: Right.
Leading with empathy and building trust
Darryl Praill: How, I mean, is that a skill that can be taught? Cause I often have a conversation about empathy. I’m not, you know, I think I can teach you empathy a little bit but I don’t think I can teach somebody who’s not naturally inclined to be empathetic to be a natural empath. So, is this something you can train out of sales reps? To understand if there’s an excitement and energy and emotion there to not suck the life out of the room right to the numbers. Even though that’s obviously where they wanna get to. You tell me.
Tim Kintz: Hell yeah, new guys do it all the time. New guy starts selling cars, doesn’t know anything about anything. Customer walks on the lot, they just figure you’re there to buy the car. And hell the new guy, gets you on a demo, you go for a drive, they get you excited. They drive it cause they wanna drive the car and they get you inside. And the first time numbers ever talk. Cause if customer says, well, what are payments run? I don’t know. What are interest rates? I don’t know. What kind of discount can I get? I don’t know, but I’ll find out let’s take it for a spin. And they get their emotions high so now when I’m sitting down to start negotiating with that customer, that customer wants that car more than I wanna sell it to them. I have them as I always say licking the paint off of the car.
Tim Kintz: And what happens is we get smart. The longer we do this the smarter we get and we start having a mindset as salespeople of, I don’t wanna go through the trouble unless I have a buyer. Okay, instead of going through the trouble to make ’em a buyer, we don’t wanna go through the trouble unless they’re a real buyer. Are you kidding me? They packed up their family drove 30 minutes to get to your dealership on their day off. They’re real, they wanna buy. Now, every customer’s nervous. I don’t care who you are, you walk on the lot, you’re nervous about spending the money. Even though you walked on the lot with the intention to spend the money. And your guard is up.
Tim Kintz: Cause you’re a car salesperson. Of course, I don’t trust you. But if I can lower your guard, if I can make it about you, if I can put a pattern and start talking about your car and what you like best about your car. And empower you to tell me what’s important in the car. Cause price really doesn’t matter if you don’t like the car. I mean, ultimately you’re not gonna buy it if you hate the car. So if I can empower you, find that about you, make it about your car, then the guard’s gonna come down. You become open-minded. So at least you’re gonna listen to what I have to say when I’m showing you the car I think is right for you.
Tim Kintz: Then you’re gonna be confident in me if I made my presentation all about you and created mental ownership before physical or financial ownership. Then when we sit down and negotiate, you’re gonna trust me. But so often people say the negotiation, it was a grind. The last 15 minutes of the car deal was a grind. The problem wasn’t the last 15 minutes of the deal, it was the first 15 minutes. Cause you never lowered that guard. You never leveraged the emotion. You never made it about the customer. So therefore they weren’t open-minded they’re not confident and they don’t trust you. And I don’t care what your selling, trust is the ultimate goal. But you know, it’s simple, is trust given or is it earned.
Darryl Praill: Oh man.
Tim Kintz: You have to earn trust.
Darryl Praill: How many times, you do have to earn it I agree. How many times have we talked in this show, where we have said, we talk about objections, whether be in price or features or functions or whatever it might be, is because you didn’t set the value upfront. I’m just gonna paraphrase what Tim just said. He said that’s part of the negotiations, the young guys, right? That’s part of the negotiations for a little bit. I don’t know what the price is or the interest rates are, the payments I don’t know. Let’s just go and let’s experience it, let’s have value. And along the way you’re gonna ask, you know, do you want a sports car? Or do you not want a sports car? And why is cargo space important to you? It’s all about establishing the value. And then if you do that, you’re getting them invested.
Darryl Praill: And now it’s not just, value is established but there’s an emotion process too. And now we can approach the negotiation process from our own respective desires, right? So, you know, Tim’s gonna want a good price. I’m sure he’s gonna want the most margin and profit. But you’re gonna want a good price, but you want the car. So you’re both invested in the conversation. You both want an outcome. I love that. Okay, we’ve gotta go for a break. We come back, we’re gonna go rapid-fire through Tim’s Five Golden Rules Of Negotiating. And what you should do while we’re on the break, if you’re at a computer, you don’t wanna listen to the commercial, is go and check out his book “Frictionless: Closing And Negotiating With Purpose.” We shall be right back.
Is negotiation optional?
Darryl Praill: Okay so one of the things we didn’t tell you before we went to commercial. We told you about the book, but we didn’t tell you there are lots of ways you can buy, and some ways speaking of negotiating prices are actually more affordable for you than other ways. Tim, before we get into the Five Golden Rules Of Negotiation, how can I get the book?
Tim Kintz: If you’re an Amazon Prime member, you can go to Amazon Prime and get it there. You can get the hard copy or you can get the Kindle version. And if you want 50% off, you can go to kintzgroup.com, go to the shop in there, type in SHARPEN AXE in the discount code and you’ll get 50% off. So, either way, man it’s there for ya. And there’s a bunch of negotiating downloads and closing downloads there’s a bunch of resources for ’em there, so.
Darryl Praill: I love it. 50% off, how’s that for negotiating out of the gate. All right. Speaking of Five Golden Rules Of Negotiation, we’re gonna go rapid-fire here. We have five. The first one you talk about is Negotiation. You talk about, is it optional? So talk to me about that.
Tim Kintz: Negotiation is optional. As we all, we kinda joke around about it in the car business, but stickers quicker. Just write me a check, right? The guy that I don’t wanna negotiate, great, stickers quicker write me a check. But the reality is, is if I build enough value and get you wanting to buy that car more than I wanna sell it, then I have to assume that our product is fairly priced. And I think so often that we think right out of the gate that we have to negotiate with everybody. And that tells me if you think you have to negotiate then you don’t see the value in your product. So how the hell can you ask for all the money if you don’t see the value in the product? Because a good deal is perception. It’s a feeling. And gross profit are not dirty words and there’s nothing wrong with it if you deliver the service to the customer. But you have to convince yourself that negotiating is optional and there’s nothing wrong with you making money when you sell a car or any product for that matter.
Darryl Praill: I wonder how many reps are just conditioned that they just expect there’s gonna be a negotiation that is not optional. So it’s just part of the sales cycle. So if that’s the case, if you’re telling me it is optional, is there a tactic you can suggest on how to perhaps even avoid negotiating all together?
Tim Kintz: Well most of the time with cars, it’s a budget decision anyway, it’s very few customers are writing a check for it. So if I can make it a budget focused negotiation, if I can figure out how to fit this vehicle in the customer’s budget. Look at it this way if there was if they had 20 Ferraris sitting out there and they were 199 a month, what do you think is gonna happen to all those Ferrari’s? They’ll sell the hell out of them they’re not gonna have them. They’re not buying, the price is still whatever 200, $300,000, but it’s the payment, right? It’s a budget and if I can afford the payment, then I’m gonna buy it. So, and I’m not saying that’s not boilerplate with everybody, but you have that belief going in that it’s fairly priced and the reality is most customers if I could fit it in their budget and they feel like they’re getting a good deal and we’re gonna take care of after the sale as well, then that has to be my belief. Now I have to be ready to negotiate but it’s having no fear.
Darryl Praill: Golden rule number one, negotiation is optional.
Tim Kintz: Absolutely.
Darryl Praill: You don’t have to do it. I love it.
Inspiration versus desperation
Darryl Praill: Number two, you talk about how that should negotiate out of inspiration and not desperation. I love that. Can you explain what it means though?
Tim Kintz: Yeah I think, in the car business for sure. I think we’re more afraid of losing a car deal than we are inspired to make it. I can’t tell you how many times I hear. Yeah, but I can’t ask that I can’t say it to a customer, it may not work. Yeah, but it might work. You have no idea. It’s, stops being afraid of losing a deal and start being inspired to make the deal. You know what? John F. Kennedy, never negotiate out of fear, but never fear to negotiate. It’s, as soon as you have fear, as soon as you’re afraid you’re gonna lose this car deal, then that customer has the advantage throughout the whole thing and stop being afraid of losing it and be inspired to make it.
Tim Kintz: Look there’s nothing wrong with going and asking for all the money, that’s golden rule number one. But when you go in there, you can’t let that fear. What does fear stand for? False Evidence Appearing Real. Do what you fear and you’ll conquer fear. But that circles back to not having the skills to be able to handle any objection that comes up within that negotiation. Or from trusting what you did early in the sale. People that are afraid to negotiate, ultimately it’s because they didn’t earn the right to negotiate with this customer. They hadn’t built the value. They didn’t earn that trust with the customer. And that’s when fear typically kicks in.
Darryl Praill: I love, I love your quotes and your acronyms. The one thing I’ll share is that when I ran sales multiple times and I had my own agency, once I got over in my mind that I could walk away from a deal, you know and I gave myself permission to walk away from the deal. And I knew that I was gonna have to work and have a steady pipeline of flow and that a certain percentage of those deals I would walk away from because I couldn’t come to an agreement on a price. My, I was, it was much easier to negotiate it cause I had that freedom. And it also inspired me to structure a deal so I didn’t lose it, to structure negotiation, again, it could be payment terms it could be freebies it could be bonus stu–, I don’t know. But let’s think outside the box, it doesn’t always have to be on the terms the customer suggests or even the terms that your boss might suggest. Be inspired as opposed to desperate. What a dramatic difference.
Negotiating from a position of strength
Darryl Praill: Okay, number three. I love this. I’m paraphrasing here so correct me Tim if I get it wrong: Whoever cares the least, wins. I got it, help me understand that one. Or maybe that’s what I just said.
Tim Kintz: Amen. Whoever cares least in a negotiation wins. Meaning that customer needs to wanna buy your car or even your house it doesn’t matter what you’re selling. They need to want your product more than you wanna sell the product. It’s not that you don’t want to, but when they want that product more than you wanna sell it, that’s when you win. And technically it’s really whoever appears to care least about the deal wins. And it’s, it circles right back though, to the first 45 minutes or so that you spent building value with that customer, right? Did you do your job? It’s, you know, it’s kinda like real estate. If you have been with a really good real estate agent you know, they’ll walk through the house and you’ll have your kids and they’ll be talking about how your furniture is gonna fit in and the curtains you’re gonna have to get.
Tim Kintz: And you’re already going on overstock.com looking for some new furniture. The kids are picking out their rooms and what color they’re going to paint the walls. And when you walk out of that house, when you had a really good real estate agent, you’ve already mentally moved your furniture into that house. And you haven’t even made an offer on that damn house yet. And it’s because you now want that house more than, technically they wanna sell it at this point. Because you’ve mentally moved your furniture in. It’s the same thing in the car business. When a customer comes in, I need to paint that vehicle into their life to the point that they can’t imagine not having that vehicle because it’s exactly what their needs are, what their hot buttons are, right?
Tim Kintz: What their compelling reasons are and why they need a new vehicle. They came in, they had a blank canvas. We painted their life on that canvas. And my job is to paint my car into their canvas of their life so they can’t see themselves not owning it. But ultimately whoever appears to care least wins. And if you’re desperate, they can smell it on you. If you have the fire sale mentality please buy I’m one unit away from my goal. They’re not buying a car from you because you’re one unit away from your goal. And yeah you might’ve sold it to the customer cause they said that, but they didn’t buy it because you were one unit away from your goal. They negotiated out of position of strength because you had the beggar’s mindset. And you negotiated out of position of weakness. Because it’s, it always, it comes down to whoever is willing to walk away is gonna get the best deal.
Last tips to improve your sales negotiation skills
Darryl Praill: Okay, we’re down to 30 seconds each in the last two, we’re tight on time here. Whoever starts the negotiation has the advantage. That’s almost counterintuitive. Help me understand that.
Tim Kintz: Whoever starts a negotiation has the advantage. I don’t want to ask the customer what they wanna pay. They’re just gonna dumb me down. They’re gonna low ball me and get my thinking down and get my attitude down. When I’m negotiating, I wanna start the numbers. Cause every time I come down on my numbers, the customer wins. But if I let them start the negotiation and I grind them up, every time I grind them up, every time I bump ’em, it’s a loss. So always start the figures, always start the negotiation and you’re gonna win more negotiations.
Darryl Praill: That’s brilliant. Last but not least, you talk about removable objections. What do you mean by that?
Tim Kintz: Yes that goes that’s Negotiating 101 you add things in that you can afford to take out. You were talking about it before. It’s, I’m going out there, I may show you 48 months with 20% down because I think that’s the best way to get your new vehicle. To me, that’s the best way to get it. It may not be your way you’re gonna get it. But now I can always go to 60 months to 72 months. I can always reduce it to 10% or 5% down. You add things and you can take out. Me and my wife buy rental houses and I’ll always throw things in. Well, I want a $3,000 paint allowance and I want a fence allowance and a carpet allowance. And I want you to throw me appliances. I don’t want any of those things. I want the price but I wanna be able to remove the paint allowance I wanna remove the fence allowance, so they feel like they win. It’s built-in victories, in your negotiation is what removal objections do for you. You build in victory so the customer feels like they’re winning.
Darryl Praill: Oh my gosh. This has been a masterclass. I’ve had fun today Tim, you know your craft so well I am so pleased to have you on. Guys, did you have as much fun as I did. “Frictionless: Closing And Negotiating With Purpose.” If you go to kintzgroup.com under shop, you get the 50% off. What’s the code again they’re Tim?
Tim Kintz: Sharpen Axe.
Darryl Praill: Sharpen Axe or of course you go to Amazon Prime Kindle, knock yourself out that’s fantastic. Guys, that is the Tim Kintz. You can find him on Twitter. You can find him on LinkedIn. Follow him. Tim, thank you so much, man. You were a joy to work with today. I loved everything you said your energy is awesome but man, your insights are killer. Thank you. I hope, would you come back to the show if we bring you back maybe we talk about some more stuff in the book?
Tim Kintz: It was an honor to be here and I’ll come back anytime you want. I got a new leadership book I’m writing as we speak.
Darryl Praill: Okay, so we’ll have you back for that cause that’s gonna be killer even though the show doesn’t talk about leadership. Dammit, we’ll make an exception for you because you’re just so much fun to talk to. Guys, what a time. But I had a great time. I hope you did too. Tim Kintz, he is with the Kintz Group check him out. I’m Darryl Praill, sometimes with VanillaSoft, but every day I’m your host here on the INSIDE Inside Sales show. You take care. We’ll talk to you soon. Bye-bye.